Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Hmm, i could swear i've seen jump freighter kill mails

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Hmm, i could swear i've seen jump freighter kill mails

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You're confusing 'possible' with 'common'.

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Well, you're changing "near impossible" to "possible"

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Originally by: Johnathan Roark

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by reading your sarcasm, i've came to the conclusion your using the wrong tactics. They are only hard to kill because they are expensive ships flown by experienced players (normally). Also, your point about cyno jammers does not make any since, they nor any other capital can cyno into cyno jammed systems.

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Originally by: Dibsi Dei

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If you think jump freighters are bad how do you feel about jump bridges?

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Originally by: Dibsi Dei

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Dibsi Dei

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If you think jump freighters are bad how do you feel about jump bridges?

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Jump bridges are horrible.

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All right, what about covops + interdiction nullifier t3 cruisers?

And safespotted or docking range command ships / command t3 cruisers that give bonuses to the whole system without being ever having to be pvp or any risk.

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Originally by: Winterblink

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Also horrible game design. Obviously. People may not agree with me, but you can't say I'm not consistent with my opinions.

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You have yet to provide any intelligent alternatives beyond removing them from the game. Lets assume that it's impossible to remove anything you want out, how would you change them to satisfy the issues you perceive are there?

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Originally by: iP0D

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Oh man, down bello.

You've become such a little whiner it's getting silly. Yeah, we realise that you have a problem with making effort, but even when things seem to be too difficult you could at least put some thought in it.

A jumpfreighter is one of the easiest targets to gank, especially around bridges. Easily bumped, slow to move, bubbles are wonderful, easy to track around space and ridiculously expensive

Look, we all know that adapting to a changing 0.0 was overly hard on you, but there are plenty of other game niches available. Aside of this EVE really is a multiplayer game, teamwork is king.

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Originally by: cBOLTSON

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Edited by: cBOLTSON on 19/08/2009 11:11:13

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Dibsi Dei

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If you think jump freighters are bad how do you feel about jump bridges?

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Jump bridges are horrible.

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NO!
LOL
Jump bridges are very much needed.
JF`s have about 1/4 of the cargo space of regular frieghters, that is thier downside.

In my PERSONAL opinion, I do not agree with you.

EDIT: I think you forget that it has 0 weapons. It needs some sort of defence. And besides the idea behind it is that it can escape through dangerous regions.

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Originally by: Mr Reason

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Bellum's right though. All the instant hauling, jump bridges, carriers with big cargo holds they all make it too damn easy to move stuff around meaning that the game world becomes smaller, it becomes easier for an alliance to overextend and that means it's nigh impossible for smaller, unaffiliated entities to carve out their own little part of 0.0

It's too easy, and easy isn't better. Remove the long range/insta hauling and sure the current situation will be impossible to keep up, trying to do so would result is a massively overworked logistics crew but that's the point; instead of trying to keep the current borders and situations (which will be impossible) there'll be a massive reshuffling resulting in smaller entities with shorter reaches. making for more and different alliances, all able to compete and battle for their area of space.

As it is now, BECAUSE of being able to overextend and relocate assets fast over huge distances, you end up with the big, boring power blocks we have. I'm sure none of the current space holders would like those changes but in the end it would be better for the game.

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Originally by: Ryoji Tanakama

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Winterblink

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Also horrible game design. Obviously. People may not agree with me, but you can't say I'm not consistent with my opinions.

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You have yet to provide any intelligent alternatives beyond removing them from the game. Lets assume that it's impossible to remove anything you want out, how would you change them to satisfy the issues you perceive are there?

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Remove WTZ. Problem solved.

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You know you could warp to 0 before it was added to the UI right?

So how does that solve ANYTHING?

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Originally by: Din Rideou

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And everyone used them.

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Originally by: Dipluz

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I understand ur point but u still fail to see the bigger picture of CCP's 0.0 Politics, when it comes to Sov holding and thats exactly what jump frieghters were built for, without em its 100 x harder to fuel just 1 region in 0.0 when it comes to holding sov. and obviously u fail to tackle a jump freighter so

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Originally by: Astria Tiphareth

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All valid points in a way, but addressing them means you change the game, dramatically. It no longer becomes the game people play today. That's an enormous risk to take and would take a heck of a lot of planning to get even remotely right. Hopefully the new sov changes will be a step in the right direction.

I can see where you're coming from, even if the OP really was a whine and you focus way too much on WTZ. I've long held the view that practically instant travel makes for a really difficult PvP environment - there's no logistics train to attack, no supply lines, and instant reinforcements almost anywhere (obviously these are generalisations). Unfortunately, CCP seem to disagree, because they gave carriers and others the ability to jump from A to B pretty quickly as their primary/only method of travel.

In features and ideas, one of the big issues discussions about how to improve 0.0 always seemed to hit was that major powers can mount large offensives/defenses rapidly and without (as much) need to deal with supplies, travel time, time to reinforce a battle, and so on.

Changing capital travel would have huge repercussions for the game. On the plus side, space would be bigger, moving goods from empire to 0.0 would have more windows of opportunity to attack, and mounting a multi-system offensive would actually require more strategy & preparation, because reinforcements aren't a cyno away. I don't really need to list the downsides, because a small legion of players used to the present sitation will for me

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Originally by: chromez0r

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Exactly. JFs should be possible to kill, not nearly impossible to kill. IMO they should be removed from the game completely, as there isn't any way to fix the flaws in the game design without making other ships (freighters) redundant.

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im⋅pos⋅si⋅ble - [im-pos-uh-buhl]
ûadjective
1. not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc.
2. unable to be done, performed, effected, etc.: an impossible assignment.
3. incapable of being true, as a rumor.
4. not to be done, endured, etc., with any degree of reason or propriety: an impossible situation.
5. utterly impracticable: an impossible plan.
6. hopelessly unsuitable, difficult, or objectionable.


pos⋅si⋅ble - [pos-uh-buhl]
ûadjective
1. that may or can be, exist, happen, be done, be used, etc.: a disease with no possible cure.
2. that may be true or may be the case, as something concerning which one has no knowledge to the contrary: It is possible that he has already gone.


so ah if something is "nearly" impossible, doesn't that make it possible?

*scratchs head*

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Originally by: SiJira

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i made these predictions before the ships came out

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Originally by: Ahz

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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WTF? I don't see the risk/reward here.

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You don't eh?

3rd most expensive ship class in-game behind Titans and Mother ships, they do only one thing and they're completely defenseless on their own. That's on the risk side.

What's the right level of reward? They're hard as heck to catch if a supporting gang is taking care of it. That seems fair.

But it's still not impossible to catch them. Take a small gang and some portable bubbles with you and get creative.

I've also got to wonder how big a problem this is. They've been in game for almost a year now and I've only run into one or two of them. They're pretty rare where I am.

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Originally by: Dimitrios Ypsilanti

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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I run into dozens every day...

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Dozens? That's a lot of extremely high-value targets!

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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... how do bubbles change the problem of being able to dock instantly...

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If they always jump directly from high sec into docking range then you probably can't catch them.

If they have to use a jump bridge or a gate at some point then you can.

With dozens of targets you'll get lucky eventually.

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Originally by: BirdieGirl

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We have killed a few (some 2-3 a day) and have lost a fair share too. I would not say they are "invulnerable"

Here

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Originally by: Rotnac

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Although, as JFs are extremely expensive, they are most likely flown with great care and scouting. This would make the ships show up less often despite being fairly frequently used.

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Originally by: Kessiaan

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JF would have to be removed entirely to give Bellum what he wants.

I fly a JF, on an alt of course. I doubt Bellum flies a JF at all or he'd somewhat understand what he's complaining about.

These ships cost upwards of 4.5B isk. They usually carry at least that much again in cargo. Nobody is going to undock 9B ISK in a defenseless ship unless they're certain they won't get caught. It's not like the old motherships that were almost invulnerable but you could you still bait and do bumping tricks, JFs won't fight period, because they can't.

JFs are invulnerable in lowsec unless the pilot is an idiot. You cyno to a station, warp to the gate, jump, wave goodbye in local. This is the only part of the equation Bellum sees - JFs must be flown with great care in nullsec since POS jump beacons land you 5kms away from the shields and that gives the world a chance to jump you. JBs are better but they can be bubbles and you can get blobbed by BS.

Anyway, see the bolded part above. If you take away these ship's relative invulnerability in lowsec it will change nothing - people will cyno into empty dead-end systems and then do even lamer tricks with a regular freighter (basically, the web trick + fake jump logoffski). You'll still never catch them unless the pilot is stupid and all it will do is inconvenience everyone.

If you want a jump capable hauler that can't do any cheap lowsec tricks, the risk has to be brought down substantially. It's the same reasoning behind the empire suicide gank nerfs - the aggressor risks virtually nothing except a little time after insurance. If all the risk is on one party CCP has shown plenty of times they'll even it up, either by making the activity riskier or just so hard it's nearly impossible to do without a lot of prior planning.

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